Considering peoples obsession with power it isn’t surprising that the vatican has a need to flaunt it, the same goes for ‘ol Benedict, personally I think it’s more the fact that he CAN change it that he has chosen to give Limbo the old heave ho, not because he thinks he should be, plus it would give him a place in history as the pope who got rid of it no? and to further your point on the churches need for extravangance, I live near one of the most famous churches in Ireland (and for the record if you compare americas belief in christianity to that of Ireland, on a general basis, were heathens)and were now being asked to “generously” donate a total of 5 million euro to restore a church that 1)has no leaky roofs, graffti walls 2)vandalised property etc 3) and is also catergorised as being in excellent condition. But I still believe that despite it’s stretch of power it’s losing it’s influence in this world, and though some people may not agree with me, I think that’s a great thing.

Men in dresses running things sounds good in theory. The gap between theory and practice leaves much to be desired.

Though I’m not Catholic and therefore don’t care much for what the Pope has to say, what the Catholics decide to do effects most of the other Christian branches whether we like it or not >->; If the Pope wants to abolish ‘Limbo’, go for it. The fact that we don’t know if it was ever actually there just means that he’s either saying it doesn’t exist but really it doesn’t, or he’s just getting rid of something that was never there in the first place. Generally, to my knowledge, Lutherans don’t believe in Limbo anyway. A nice thing, for me, about coming from a smaller church is that we don’t have all the fancy clothes, or the OMGSHINY church and such. Heck, my church still has a cement floor XD But it IS a nice place to go to, and even homey in a sense. Then again I can walk around and go to church in my casual clothes and no one minds.

But that’s off topic, pretty much. The funny thing about Christianity is that we’re split in several directions about several things. Catholics have their Hail Marry’s and their Pope, Lutherans don’t. Course Lutherans and Catholics are the main branches, but then Lutherans have a lot of different branches as well. It’s all rather confusing if you don’t look into it and unfortunately (least I think it’s unfortunate) what the Catholics do tend to form the public mask of all Christians. Catholics say abortion is evil then oh my Lord every Christian MUST believe abortion is terrible. They also hold office usually, so the views get into government =/ Whoot…

I’ll stop now. This is turning into my personal rant on clumping Christians.

Abortion was just legalized here in Mexico on monday… you should have seen the face od the catholics, there were priest that threaten to excomunicate the politicians that passed the law… it’s… hilarious…

If I recall correctly, the whole purgatory mess was cleared up YEARS ago under John Paul II who got rid of the concept. I could be wrong, I’m only recalling what we were discussing in AP Euro and honestly my memory is a bit fuzzy. (AP tests will do that to you.)

The thing is that Catholicism was originally taken seriously because the proto-orthodoxy was able to eliminate all competition and create a universal church. From there things just sort of evolved and got to the point of the Reformation and well, we all know what happened from there. Bart Ehrman’s “Lost Christianities” explains it better than I can. Before the Catholic church there was so much diversity that has been lost to us as a whole. The only remains we have are the books of the Nag Hammadi library and writings of the old Church Fathers that quoted “heretical documents” that have since then been lost.

Religion is an amazing gate to sociology and anthropology but it’s the people who believe in it that sometimes make you go “WRY!”. I’ve always thought religion would be great if it weren’t for the faithful. But then again, that defeats the purpose of religion.

@Meg: I believe Limbo and Purgatory are two different things.. but… who the hell knows anymore?

Even with the Purgatory business, one Pope just made it up and another nixed it. I didn’t know old dudes in dresses had the power to create or destroy planes of existance at their whim e_e

It all goes back to the one line in the bible stating along the lines of: what you set fourth here on earth i will hold true in heaven… gotta love the catholic religion. And if you think about it, not only do they practice greed, vanity and pride, but they also practice wrath… yelling at people that god will smite them and that people are unholy and are going to hell etc… sloth: most of the priests are fat and happy lol, envy: in all actuality they envy the other religions for their increasing popularity, such as neo-paganism/wicca, buddhism, judiaism, etc… everyone’s trying to get away from the pope lol. Lust: look at the incidents with choir boys, and you can’t tell me that those priests and cardinals aren’t tapping those nuns! I mean come on, they can just say it’s in god’s name!
That pretty much covers the bases, figured I’d get my two cents in on that.
As far as the whole limbo bit goes, yeah the pope has the power to make it so that catholics can’t enter into limbo, but they can’t just disolve a plane that already has so much belief in it.

BTW on a side note, what part of NE are you from Sai? I’m in Maine XD

@Nesarius: Well that could go for the Evangelists too, I guess, with their hate-preaching, their Ted Haggards (lol condemning gays and then banging a male prostitute), their money-schemes, the huge egos of the preachers, etc. upon etc.

I make it no secret that I’m a Rhode Islander. It probably explains alot :p

Limbo? I ain’t never heard of no Limbo; I was just taught Purgatory, Heaven, and Hell.

Actually, I wasn’t even taught that, I had to look it up myself; the Seven Deadly Sins, too.

I don’t know anymore, Sai, I was so embroiled in the, uh, HOLY GOD concept and WWJD in the aftermath of Easter I forgot all about that there Pope. *facepalm* Usually, ignoring these ‘officials’ saves me the headache and the extra rage of ‘AND THESE PEOPLE REPRESENT US AS A WHOLE?!’

Everyone knows that the pope is the devil.

You see, Peter is considered the first patriarch of the Christian church, and all popes that come after him are kind of like… him. Reincarnation, anyone? Anyway, in the Bible, Jesus says to Peter “Get behind me Satan!” Therefore, using the Transitive Property of Popes, the Pope is Satan. Basic pope math.

And the whole saint thing really smacks of polytheism to me. And if not that, it smacks of an attempt to repress the people. I can talk to whatever great and powerful being I believe in on my own, thank you very much! You saints can go stick your bones and relics up your collective asses.

@Ceh XD Well don’t forget “satan” can be a general word meaning… what it means (”advesary” or “accusor”). Catholicism was the first sect, though, yes, although it was Paul who was responsible for pretty much usurping Jesus’ movement.

But yeah common tradition is that Peter was the first pope.

It is rather suspicious that the pope is like the acting God of Earth and completely infalliable. That seems like a sort of “idol worship” or “false prophet” type of situation….

Hmmm… a creepy old man in a dress ruling over god… It makes no sense. I never did understand the whole religion, even when I was a little kid going to go see my grandfather give a sermon. It just never made sense. The fact that a mortal man gets to decide what exists and what doesn’t, rather than their all knowing “god” just backs me up on my thoughts that the entire religion is a total mess and is total bullshit. But, if the old man wants to do this stuff, go ahead. I too find it odd that these men wear all this fine jewelry and live lives of luxury and these robes when it’s supposed to be against their religion. I guess the Popes and priests are above the god they are supposed to serve now.

My grandmother is a conservative Catholic. My mother was baptized and raised Catholic, as was I. At a young age, I memorized the order of the Old & New Testament Books, prayers, hymns, etc. I observed Ash Wednesday and Lent, well, religiously. When my father left us, my mother got a divorce and had a child out of wed-lock, my grandmother completely erased us from her life. To her we never existed. Bull-sh!t, eh?
What`s more disgusting was that my grandfather was Protestant, and the Catholic Church had my grandmother pay “X” amount of dollars so she could marry him and not be excommunicated.

But you know who`s really screwed up? Baptists.
After being excommunicated my mother sent my sisters and I to this religious organization called AWANA. I felt like I was in some kind of cult. They had this flag (which was held above the United States flag) we pledged ourselves to, and these God awful uniforms.
They told my little sisters that the Easter Bunny & Santa Claus were evil, because they lend them away from celebrating Jesus. I mean, C`MON, they were six & eight-freaking-years-old ! The one day, I brought a pack of Pokemon cards (did I mention this was the 90s?) to the meeting and this little girl came up to me and told me, “You are going to Hell. Pokemon are demons.” I just sat there like: FTW.
At the next meeting, they passed out these packets to take home entitled “The Dangers of Role-Playing Cards”. It said that these cards lead us from God, taught Greed, and made us want to steal from others.
I started a petition against this, but in the end it did not change anything. When I began questioning little flaws that I found in the Bible, they asked me to leave. Shortly after I started questioning God`s existence and lost my faith. I was an eleven-year-old surrounded by strict conservative Christians. I did not know there were others like me or even there was a word to describe what I was.
It was years later when I was hired by a homosexual couple who ran a convenience store together that I learned I was an atheist like them. It was wonderful to feel like I belonged somewhere.

Jeez. Sorry, I wrote a lot.

@Kit. That’s a very interesting story. And just imagine, you might still have your faith if the people in it weren’t so dogged about it that they would disown people for circumstances partially out of their control, or think that anything that doesn’t stem from the bible/church is evil and will lead people away from teh gawd.

Of course they’d probably deny it was THEM who lead YOU away from teh gawd, it was totally Pokemon. Curse you, Satoshi Tajiri!

I was born and raised Catholic, so I know firsthand what you’re talking about. I really think it was the church I went to that made me feel like I wasn’t getting anything from religion at ALL. The priest just stood there and droned on and on, and I sat there as a seven-year-old in my frilly First Communion dress thinking, “It won’t be so bad, I just have to listen to the same thing every Sunday for the rest of my life…”

And then I discovered that there are other religions besides Catholicism. SHOCKER. No, seriously. Sounds like I live in the same kind of Catholic-crowded place as you do. It’s hard to be diverse. D:

My mother said that as long as I live under her roof, I have to be Catholic, which means I have to pretend. I’ve never really understood how God is supposed to love everybody, but sentences His children to eternal damnation–but as long as they go to confession, it’s all hunky-dory. So what if you got high and tried to kill your sister or your dog? Apologize and say a few prayers and you’re good to go!

@Kutidee, from what my mom also tells me that seems like the policy of Catholic families: don’t explain the religion just demand it be followed.

She said when she was a kid they never learned much about the Bible or anything (and now laughs cause I know so much about it), she said all she was told was basically follow these rules, be good, and you’ll get anything you want in Heaven. Incidently she quit Catholicism before I was born XD

It’s like.. you know… if that’s your attitude what’s even the point of being religious? It’s like some strange, ingrained habit people are afraid to stray from.

I never really understood Catholicism, even though I was raised Catholic. No one ever explained anything to me in Sunday school, and if I thought of something in a different way, I got yelled at. Either that, or they just didn’t understand me. (The teachers, I mean.) They acted like everything was set in stone, which it clearly is not. I’m not Catholic anymore, though. I guess you could say I “quit” about a year ago. I had to go to my baby cousin’s baptism, and I couldn’t help feeling so damn sorry for the kid. He was being put into a religion w/o having any say in it. You should be able to have some say in what religion you’re a part of. It’s your beliefs about life and whatever after. It’s important. (I honestly asked my parents if I could get “un-baptised” or something :P)

side note: I’m a RI’er, too. Yay.

I too was raised Catholic, although my mother is Lutheran, which led to some…interesting debates between her and my paternal grandmother. When I was younger, I went to mass and Sunday school. There I constantly tried to integrate my understanding of religion with my understanding of the natural world. This, however, did not sit well with the teachers. Of course when an eight year old tries to have a conversation with a teacher about trying to unify religion with evolutionary theory, it tends to get some strange looks.

Slowly I realized it was not worth it, I stopped attending mass, stopped praying with the family and such. This led to some animosity between my family and I, but nothing that couldn’t be worked out (ok, just ignored, when have you known a strong religious person to accept an alternative view?).
After this, I developed somewhere in between an agnostic and atheist (as in, most of the time it doesn’t matter, but when considering scientific or general logical matters it simplifies things to follow Occam’s Razor and just assume there is no god).

Unfortunately I currently live in the middle of the bible belt where Southern Baptism and the Church Of Christ are dominant (if you thought Catholicism was odd, look into these two), which puts me at odds with the locals.

But this brings me past the boring story and to ask, why do these people follow these ideas so strongly and blindly? Is it just a habit, a meme that is so strongly ingrained that it cannot be changed except at the persons choice? Is it done out of simple fear of their own mortality or of the ‘what if they are right’ factor? Is it used as a simple crutch, to fill a hole in the person they believe they cannot fill otherwise? Or has it become a kind of psychological addiction? Is the often mentioned feeling of extacy at the ‘love of god’ just a person’s limbic system reacting to a stimuli that has been taught to be ‘good’? I don’t want this to be misinterpreted as me hating religion, as I think it is an incredibly interesting window into the human psyche and an indespensible part of anthropology. I just believe that the pomp and circumstance of most religions are nothing more then outdated rituals designed to keep a communal specie in order. We can (and I want to emphasize the ‘can’) use a more evolved sense of reason to do the same thing, without the whole bigotry and segregationalism.

But anyway, I do believe I’ve ranted on enough about this, sorry for the length.

I live in the bible belt too and no offense, but some people around here are…nutjobs to say it kindly.

My mother was cathlic and always taught me as a child that there was God and dragged me to church when I was little. When I was a teenager I realized that God may not exist and that the whole adam and eve thing didn’t make sense. Then I lived with my dad who is a very open minded person and didn’t go to church…and well I can’t say I’m atheist, but i don’t believe in God.

Though that’s not the point. Catholcism is just…cruel in alot of cases like the whole gay rights thing. I mean would a kind loving ‘God’ really give a crap who was married to who as long as they were praising him? Alot of people around my life are just plain mean to new ideas and go nuts if you say your interested in something else and consider religion mythology. The only difference was that God didn’t marry his own sister like Zeus and didn’t sleep with mortals. And religion makes people do crazy things.

Wow, there getting rid of limbo now? Where are all the people who were never introduced to god are going to go now? (rolls eyes) sorry for ranting.

Goodness. A lot of informed, uninformed, and dipshit opinons about this whole mess. In reality, Pope John Paul II renounced Purgatory. There are still many Catholics that believe in it, but whatever. Now I am going to answer questions brought up by several people. First off, Limbo is actually in the first layer of hell. I dunno what it’s like, but it also was renounced. If it is truely a kind and loving God, why would he send uninformed people to Hell? I don’t think he does, and I’m pretty sure nothing in the Bible refutes me. As long as you do what you think is good, why should you go to Hell?
Secondly, fanaticism of any type is always bad. Muslims, Communists, Nazis, Catholics, Mormons, Atheists, whatever, if you follow a set dogma without eyes, you cannot see the flaws, and as fanatics, would hurt or kill people who tried to point them out.
Third, the Bible has been translated so many times that original meanings have been lost. So many fools follow an English translated Bible and think that that is the direct word of God, and anyone who says otherwise is a heretic. The Bible is also full of metaphor and references to things that were happening at the time, so taking it word for word is pretty silly. For example, it says God created the world in 6 days. How long was a day at the beginning of creation? Could it have been 25 hours? 26? 27 trillion? No one but God was there to measure.
Fourth, “Why do Catholics have such fancy churches?” Because it’s pretty. It’s decoration. Cathedrals are supposed to be ‘Houses of God’ and people assume that, like them, God likes his house nicely furnished. As for the fancy digs for priests, preists use their own money for them. They get payed a set salary decided by the dioces Bishop, and can buy whatever they want with it, like a regular job.
Fifth, Pope Benedict is not exactly the mover and shaker that was hoped for. He is merely a placeholder until someone else like Pope John Paul II comes along.
Sixth, the Seven Deadlys. Ah, such fun. Indeed, Catholicism has had quite the choppy past. For the longest time, priests and Bishops, and so on, were essentially lods. They had castles, sometimes standing armies (usually known as ‘millitiant monks’) and all the things that lords had. With power goes corruption, and for a VERY long time evil people ruled the Church. That is the main reason that other sects of Christianity exsist. Martin Luther posted his complaints on a monastary door, not intending to blow the Church to pieces, merely to solve a widespread problem, but he unintentionally dropped a match into an pit filled with oil-soaked seals… There was much noise and stench. After ALL THAT even now the Church still has corruption. However, people like Pope John Paul II do their best to fix things.
On to the final topic… Abortion. The problem that is seen with abortion, and why it is seen as evil is obvious to Catholics. They view the fetus, and even the starting collection of cells, as a potential human. Thus, ending the potential is seen as murder, even more so because it cannot defend itself. End topic. E-mail me if you wish to argue (I will probably respond), debate (definately), discuss, or whatever ar Chronische@gmail.com.

Bye alls, hope this gets posted.

Limbo was just a crossover from the old Greek religion, and was taken as a form of marketing, to attract more Greeks to something familiar, like Christmas trees. Christmas trees attracted Druidic people.
And as for the value of children under one month, you can’t dedicate it, because back then the child was as likely to die as to live. You have to wait until the child is one month old until you can dedicate it. It’s an old Jewish thing, and does not apply to abortion. There is another quote which you probably have read before, “It would be better for those who cause harm to the least of my children to throw themselves into the sea with a millstone around their neck”. Essentially saying that humans should not kill children, no matter how young. If it is God’s will (still-born), it is God’s will, and they deal with it. Really, though, it’s not a matter that I care that much about.

I have never posted here, and wasn’t sure about the rules. Some places require permission to post the first time.

And that is a problem. The people who don’t know it and blindly follow what they have been spoon-fed cause the violence. Well, not just them, people on both sides of the issue are crazy, but they give religion a bad name.

Again, English bibles are poorly translated at best. And it’s the only standing that crazies need to riot about something. “If God does hate abortion why would he create the possibility of still birth or miscarriages at all?” Why? http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=143&override=1#comic That should be answer enough.

The problem with that is spammers exploit you to pieces, but I suppose you are defended somehow.

The kind of people that don’t know this are the ones that either wouldn’t believe, or would beat you up for daring to suggest that their religion is a gamut, and not pure.

Again, English translations are poor at best, and should not be relied on. Why would he allow bad things to happen at all? Here’s why. http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=143&override=1#comic

I suppose you have a spammer shield, or something. Yeh.

He had to be bloodthirsty with the Hebrews because they weren’t getting the point. You know, all those times they whined to Moses about pointless crap? Or the REAL zinger, the time they just decided that God no longer exsisted, though they had SO MUCH proof to the contrary. Mostly it was to try to get their asses into shape, but it didn’t work. That’s why there is a New Testament at all, the chosen people broke off their part of the bargain.

Essentially, yes. However, they kept whining. Whine whine whine. Food & water would have been provided when they needed it, but they whined before it was really needed. Yeh. And the books were, in all likelyhood, mostly written & rewritten years and years after the disciples were dead. So yeh.

Yeh. Also, this quote came after they already had been fed. They wanted high quality bread, and God said “Fuck no!” with burning snakes. That should make an impression, but it doesn’t considering the various other things they later whined about…. The survivors learned nothing. Stupid to the Xtreeeeeeeeeeeeme!

Actually, Limbo was abolished years ago. I think Purgatory is still around.
And by the way, I’ll tell you WTF is up with Catholicism. It’s more socially minded than most other Christian denominations, which tend to be a little more Salvation obsessed. that’s not to say there aren’t exceptions to the rule, but that big organization the guy in the big hat runs tends to help people in need more than Evangelists or whatever other denominations there are.

But yes, Catholicism also has humorous sides. That Church is teaching th’ childrens that all non-catholics would go to hell without the grace of the church.
I lol’d.